The Question of Abortion
By Raven Posted in Life Issues — Comments (13) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
I don't really know what you would call me. Where I would fall in this debate. But I would like to take this time to explain my experience and my position on the issue.
When it comes to the question of abortion, I believe it comes down to the question of "When does life begin?"
I, personally, do not believe that it starts with conception.
I do, however, believe it has begun when the child can be born premature but alive. That leaves approximately 5 months of question.
I am against all abortions (except in the case of the mother's health) from the point of a viable birth on (incest and rape should have gotten their abortions earlier). And I consider Partial Birth Abortion to be out and out murder. However, I question whether abortions are really neccessary at that point. Why not just induce labour or do a surgical delivery (Caesarian-Section, etc)? If you are going to carry the child that long but don't want to keep him/her, why not give your newborn up for adoption? Continuing the pregnancy that long says you have already chosen. Too late for 2nd-guessing; time to prepare.
That earlier period, though? I can't make a decision. I have been placed in the position of needing to decide and found myself unable to do so. Literally frozen in place. I have heard about this thing called indecision and I thought that it was merely an unwillingness to make the call. That I have done before. "I don't feel like deciding. You decide." "I'm too lazy to make up my mind right now. Surprise me." But this? A distinct inability to make what is possibly the most important decision of my life?
I ran the question through what I consider to be my not insignificnt powers of reason and came up with bupkiss. I prayed for guidance and got no answer. I asked others and got no coherent explanation of their position. It all came back to, "When does life begin?" And at 6 weeks into the pregnancy, it was a good question as to whether or not it had.
I was still struggling with the decision a week later when my wife informed me I didn't have to worry about it anymore but did I still love her?
I did and I do and I always will. What would have most likely been my first son was aborted by medication at 7 weeks into the pregnancy. I have wondered many times since what he would have been like and what it would be like to have a 3 yr old right now. And I have had to fight hard to get through to my wife a couple of times and save her and our marriage since then when she had her bouts of depression and doubt; second-guessing her actions.
It is not something we will ever do again. It is not a choice I will recommend for anyone.
But it is also not a choice I will recommend against. And even knowing what I know now, what We know now, I do not know that we would not have done it then.
It is not something that I feel guilty for, nor does my wife feel guilty for it now. But it is something I wonder if maybe we should feel guilty for it and whether it is one of our many sins that we will answer for on the final day.
I wrote a blog in my early days here at redstate that has been lost in time about this internal struggle. I personally decided that I thought the child became a person when they had personal will, spirit, guiding force. The only way to come close to measuring that with science is brainwaves. So that’s where I fall on this... as if you asked.
"I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance"-Socrates(the real one ;)
Is quickening in or out in this discussion?
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
"It's a book about a man who doesn't know he's about to die, and then dies...
...But if the man does know he's going to die and dies anyway. Dies, dies willing, knowing he can stop it, then...
Well, isn't that the type of man you want to keep alive?"
Karen Eiffel, Stanger Than Fiction
The quickening occurs when the child's movements can first be felt by the mother. Traditionally it was believed that the quickening was caused by the entrance of the child's spirit into its body.
Useful abortion sites
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
Before viability, there can still be a state interest in preserving life, even if that life is classified as embryonic life or some such.
And individually we may still have a moral duty to protect human life even in the embryonic stage - or not end that life except in order to save serious damage to the health of the mother.
"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher
It's too alike to what PETA and ASPCA have been saying about animals.
I can't get behind the anti-embryonic stem-cell research on the reason of them being potential life. They're going to be destroyed anyway. Let them be destroyed in the name of potentially saving the living. (I can and have, however, gotten behind anti-embryonic stem cell research based on the lack of performance of that research thus far versus adult stem cells...)
Potential Life or Partial Life (or nonsentient life) is not LIFE.
"It's a book about a man who doesn't know he's about to die, and then dies...
...But if the man does know he's going to die and dies anyway. Dies, dies willing, knowing he can stop it, then...
Well, isn't that the type of man you want to keep alive?"
Karen Eiffel, Stanger Than Fiction
I disagree with the idea that you can draw the kind of bright line you want to draw at viability, and then consider ending the existence of pre-viable humans as casually as cutting off the head of a chicken.
But if you want to think that a human life at 4 months in the womb can be thrown out, whereas a human life at 6 months in the womb should be preserved at all costs short of serious damage to the mother - go ahead. Sounds like rationalization to me, though.
"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher
There is no bright line and it should never be casual. The very lack of a "bright line" is what causes my problems.
However, there are obvious differences at certain points. The kinds of embryoes being considered for use, and used, in embryonic stem cell research are obviously not alive and only potential life that will likely never be.
A baby 4 months in the womb, though...
"It's a book about a man who doesn't know he's about to die, and then dies...
...But if the man does know he's going to die and dies anyway. Dies, dies willing, knowing he can stop it, then...
Well, isn't that the type of man you want to keep alive?"
Karen Eiffel, Stranger Than Fiction
And what is it about that 4 month fetus that makes it different from the early embryo in your view? (that's not a rhetorical question)
Typically showing a definite choice to carry the child for awhile (it is possible, though rare, for a woman to go more than 2 months without knowing she is pregnant).
Additionally, in many cases, the child has begun to kick. Furthermore, it has brain patterns and can feel pain.
Does this mean that I wouldn't allow a woman to have an abortion at 4 months? No. But I wouldn't disallow it, either.
I guess my real view is that in that first trimester, for the most part, I don't see why people can't make their own decisions. My wife and I made ours and while we're not exactly happy with it, we don't see as how we could reasonably prevent others from making the same decision that early in the pregnancy.
"It's a book about a man who doesn't know he's about to die, and then dies...
...But if the man does know he's going to die and dies anyway. Dies, dies willing, knowing he can stop it, then...
Well, isn't that the type of man you want to keep alive?"
Karen Eiffel, Stranger Than Fiction
I agree with you that brain patterns and ability to feel pain are key. I think thoughts and emotions are what makes us persons. And the key question should always be "Is it a person or not?". If it is a person, then killing it should not be legal. Of course, people have different criteria for what would make it a person, but the state has the responsibility to protect people from getting killed, so it has to define what a person is. I think we can all agree that aborting an 8 month fetus is immoral and should be illegal (except to save the life of the mother) because that fetus is almost indistinguishable from a newborn baby. So the state already is -- and should be -- drawing a line, rather than leaving it up to every individual to decide.
While I need to look into the specifics of fetal development at various stages, my thinking is similar to yours on where the line should be drawn both morally and legally, and the basis for deciding on the location of that line.
Thanks again for having the guts to discuss this issue despite the personal stress and pain.
Thanks for a very thoughtful post, particularly on an issue that has affected you very personally and profoundly. (And I'm glad you brought it up instead of me, because if I had done so the page would already be filled with false accusations that I'm a "liberal" or "leftist")
I believe you're on the right track in asserting that the key question is "when does life begin?" but I would adjust the question a bit for precision. Clearly even a zygote is alive, has human DNA, and is a separate organism, so it is unquestionably "human life". I would, therefore, ask "Is it a person?" Perhaps that's what you meant, but I'm just suggesting precision of language, if you don't mind.
And of course the next question is, "What distinguishes a person from a zygote, if anything?" I would disagree that it is viability outside the womb -- that's a matter of location of the embryo or fetus; it says nothing about what it IS (a person or not). To illustrate, if the state of medicine were such that viability did not occur until the 9th month, I sure wouldn't say that an 8 month fetus is not a person and not deserving of protection.
So the question I would pose is "What makes us persons, and how can we apply those criteria to an embryo or fetus?"
"When it comes to the question of abortion, I believe it comes down to the question of "When does life begin?""
That's what it comes down to. And not to avoid your very sincere post, but it frustrates me when people willfully try to avoid the above question and talk about something else. The focus on the mother alone does so. If there was not question when life began then abortion would not be such a difficult moral and legal question.
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Bobby Jindal Saves Louisiana